Curse

LaserLight · Apr 27, 2006, 06:16 PM // 18:16

Wanted to start a thread discussing the drastic changes to Shadow Refuge, which has already gone through several dramatic changes since its inception.

First Stage: 5/1/8, for 4 seconds gain 75% evasion (I think), and when SR ends gain X health. Not bad, good panic button skill, which is what it was supposed to be. Not much for a health skill though, with the recharge times. Still, more help than nothing, and saved more than one skinny-thighed butt.

Second Stage: 5/1/8, for 4 seconds you take only half damage from all sources. When SR ends, gain X health. Okay...bit of a shift from evasion, but overall, melikes. Thought it was a good change, if kind of an odd one, and I know many Assassinoids across the forums were thrilled with it.

Third Stage: 5/1/8, for 4 seconds gain Y (rather high) Health regen. When SR ends, you gain X health if attacking. Ahem: @_@. WHERE did this come from? O_o A complete shift in the skill's mechanics, substituting raw healing power for any form of protection. I was rather reminded of Troll Unguent, and cannot now help but call this skill the Purple Troll Unguent Thing. X's health gain is now almost insignificant - the skill's healing is in Y.

While this final stage offers a great healing skill, I must say I'm kinda let down about the removal of a great protection skill for it. Assassins had a great healing skill in Way of Perfection and a great protection skill in Shadow Refuge Second Stage. Now they've got two great healing skills, but no protection skills, unless you're bolting for your life with Dark Escape. Which precludes attacking under your own buffs.

At the same time, I imagine several Deadly Arts fans are jumping for joy right now since it takes next to no investment in Shadow Arts for Shadow Refuge to be a great regen healer. Just the spare points from a normal attribute spread and a Minor Rune would likely net you seven or so regen, which is a pretty hefty boost. Tested this a bit earlier - the SR regen ramp is steep as hell. Two levels into it and it already shifts up from 5 to 6. So now there's an almost-unlinked healing skill available for people who didn't want to spec into Shadow Arts but felt they had to for self-healing.

So. Opinions any other directions? Mixed feelings? MM-level anger? Elementalist-level joy? Too stoned on Head Start event to care? However it goes, speak up and Let The People Know

fallot · Apr 27, 2006, 07:21 PM // 19:21

First Stage was 50% evade I think. It totally sucks now, taking half-damage made it a very useful skill. I dont know what ANet was thinking when they made changes to the Assassin. People were complaining about them being weak and they get nerfed ?

unholy guardian · Apr 27, 2006, 07:50 PM // 19:50

Me = angry, i loved it in the second stage...

fallot · Apr 27, 2006, 08:06 PM // 20:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by LaserLight

it takes next to no investment in Shadow Arts for Shadow Refuge to be a great regen healer.

Well, at 3 Shadow Arts (which is "next to no investment"). It gives 6 pips of regen for 4 seconds, which is reasonable but not very impressive. The heal that triggers if you are attacking is useless as you wouldnt be attacking in situations where this skill is used.

lightblade · Apr 27, 2006, 11:31 PM // 23:31

That makes 2 of us unholy guardian!

Shadow's Refuge 's mechanic just don't sound like SHADOW anymore

Katari · Apr 28, 2006, 12:07 AM // 00:07

The first form of SR protected against a limited form of damage (incomming attacks only) and healed. The second protected against a much larger range (Only degen ignored it). The current form helps reguardless of the situation, and I rather like that--altough, I'm not a huge fan of the attacking requirement.

I haven't gotten very farm with my sin yet, and I'm really not sure how they'll hold up in PvE. Their armor just seems rather fragile for what they are, and they lack the sort of defensive skills that rangers and warriors have.

MysticPain · Apr 28, 2006, 03:20 AM // 03:20

I've gotten to level 13 today on my sin, and although Shadow Refuge is my main healing skill for the moment, I fully agree. I'm not a fan of the third form at all, I find the first 2 to be far more desirable. The only use I really see for this is if you have to do an all-out tank for a few seconds for a friend to run by (yes, this happened) and thus you use it and run in attacking.

The only other use for it is, as another post mentioned, Troll.

majeh456 · Apr 28, 2006, 12:33 PM // 12:33

the third form doesnt seem very...assassin like...

Vahn Roi · Apr 28, 2006, 01:34 PM // 13:34

whatever, the third stage has made the difference between life and death for me quite a few times. 'Sins don't have enough self-heals.

Yukito Kunisaki · Apr 28, 2006, 02:14 PM // 14:14

I hate to admit it but after looking at assassin 'role', playing my newly born lvl 1 sin [he's da man...]

I find this form of Shadow Refuge to r0x0rs the house...

Why?

Well, first off, it's like Blood Renewal now. You use it either at the start, or past the beginning of the battle... 2nd, yes, you get a LOT of healing out of it since it'd suck otherwise...

and lastly

You're an assassin, wtf are you complaining about? You're NOT SUPPOSED TO stand next to a foe for 20s. swinging like some pansy warrior wannabe... You use Shadow Refuge to buy yourself perhaps 3 precious seconds to finish off a foe desperately trying to cling to life...

If you can't kill someone in half the time it takes a warrior to kill someone, you're obviously swinging at the wrong target...

Evilsod · Apr 28, 2006, 02:16 PM // 14:16

They don't have enough? How many do Rangers and Warriors have exactly?

Ungent works against degen and nothing much else and takes ages to even cast, Siggy works against degen and damage to an extent. 2nd version of Refuge was good, too damn good.

Ordos · Apr 28, 2006, 03:55 PM // 15:55

I agree with Yukito. My build utilizes 2 sets of 2 hit combos that add poison and 2 knockdowns in a row. Normally my target gets defeated quickly or at least stays on the ground and cannot hit me. Assassin is not meant to stand in the foreground. Ive been using this tactic to take one out, run away till im recharged then run back in and take out another.

Yukito Kunisaki · Apr 28, 2006, 04:00 PM // 16:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ordos

I agree with Yukito. My build utilizes 2 sets of 2 hit combos that add poison and 2 knockdowns in a row. Normally my target gets defeated quickly or at least stays on the ground and cannot hit me. Assassin is not meant to stand in the foreground. Ive been using this tactic to take one out, run away till im recharged then run back in and take out another.

/salute

all these noob sins thinking they must worry about longer skill recycle time... *che*...

If you're going to stand there skill spamming, then you're either a repeating strike sin or a sin thinking he can do a warrior's job...

arredondo · May 01, 2006, 12:33 AM // 00:33

A 60 AL character in melee range is one limitation. Giving him a pitiful heal every 8s is just a slap in the face. So when a KD Warrior turns towards you because you are all up in his domain, you have to take 1s to cast (getting pounded), then start running, only to STOP AND ATTACK (getting pounded) just to get the benefit of the health bonus?

That's just pitiful no matter how you slice it up. You are now forced to rely on a second protect skill, your Monks/Rits, or your secondary for primary healing/protection. Like Distortion for Mesmers, SR used to be a solid all-purpose support skill to fit in many builds that was hardly overpowered.

It now gives you 20 health-per-second (between multiple casts) only IF you stop twice to use it (cast and attack)... and that's at L16 Shadow Arts! Whoever compared this to Blood Renewal needs to know it ain't even close. At L16 Blood, BR nets you 28 hps (factoring sacrifice), and you only have to stop to use it once. Since Necros aren't in melee range as often as Assassins (allowing them to kite earlier and safer) these stats skew even worse against typical SR use in-close. Plus Blood Renewal, like Troll, will work even if you are 500 feet from the nearest enemy... not with SR since they trashed it because it then becomes 10 hps to use.

I was going to make a PvE Assassin, and even though it may be fine for mindless AI drones, I lost all desire to build one up for later PvP use since that skill was in all my early theory builds (not much else to choose from). An awful nerf.

BahamutKaiser · May 01, 2006, 12:53 AM // 00:53

I think this is alot more benificial if your getting hit with heavy degen or by spells, in which case no amount of evasion is helping you, in actuallity it is a more universal healing opportunity. The other significant reason would probably be shadow of distress, which raises evasion over a long period of time whenever your health is low, together 2 evasion skills arn't doing much, wile shadow of distress may only work after your half dead, it wouldn't provide alot of defense to use shadow refuge if it just added evasion and then some health. I think my biggest problem with this skill is that it regens so briefly, and you have to be attacking to get the small kick of health, but most of all the recharge time means the other 4 seconds wile it is recharging leaves you with next to no healing options in the assassin line.

I think it is better then the original from an overall combine skill use standpoint, but I think the recast time should be 4 seconds, your spending 5 energy for 4 seconds of regen and a possible kick of health if your still offensive, compared to troll urgent which cost the same but last 10 seconds and can be cast back to back, you get more health overall, and can be cast back to back, without an offensive ploy.

If an Assassin spends one second and 5 energy casting a regen skill every 4 seconds, then he is going to be pausing alot and using energy quicker then he is gaining it, giving him a survival heal just like Warrior, which is good, but a prime target for shutdown, and Assassins drop alot faster then warriors.

LaserLight · May 01, 2006, 12:54 AM // 00:54

Ye don't actually need the attack healing bonus, but even ten regen, at four seconds, isn't a game-breaking heal. Useful as hell, yes, game-breaking, no. I miss second stage...regen healing does not outweight even a small window of half damage. Now Dark Escape is all that cuts the damage, and that falls the instant you land a hit.

Bad Anet, bad! No more cookies for you!

S H I N O B I · May 01, 2006, 01:22 AM // 01:22

Though I do miss the 2nd iteration, I found using the current Shadow Refuge in conjunction with Critical Eye and Way of Perfection so far quite useful for survivability... Anyone try this combo yet?

Saider maul · May 02, 2006, 01:51 AM // 01:51

i think shadow refuge should drop to 6sec recharge aside from that i think its fine.. the assassin does lack in the way of direct heals. refuge is basically it.

UndeadRoadkill · May 02, 2006, 02:14 AM // 02:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by S H I N O B I

Though I do miss the 2nd iteration, I found using the current Shadow Refuge in conjunction with Critical Eye and Way of Perfection so far quite useful for survivability... Anyone try this combo yet?

I've been using SR and Viper's Defense with Way of Perfection, Wild Blow, Critical Strike, and a bunch of points in critcals, and I do pretty well if I'm careful.

Cymboric Treewalker · May 02, 2006, 03:45 AM // 03:45

Play the game a wee bit lads... then maybe ya can complain.